Tashana, Portia, and Ingrid are joined by Rhonda Kitch, University Registrar at Cornell University for a conversation about accessibility in higher education and the role of enrollment professionals in recognizing and removing barriers. Rhonda shares her own experience navigating a path to higher education as a first generation college student from a rural area and highlights the barrier students face in accessing the fundamental tools required to learn. Rhonda’s passion for this topic is alive in this episode, as she shares how she has advocated for her own children and what she appreciated about a candid college tour conversation and her mission to make sure we all use a microphone.
Also, please consider emailing heard@aacrao.org or reaching messaging Portia, Tashana, or Ingrid on LinkedIn to share your thoughts for how the HEARD podcast can support you in future episodes.
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| 0:00:15.31 | 65.8s | Ingrid Nuttall | Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Heard. In this episode, Tashana, Portia, and I spoke with Rhonda Kitch, university registrar at Cornell, about access and accessibility in higher education. We discussed the impact enrollment professionals can have on removing barriers for students before they ever set foot on the campus by letting them know not just about the services that are there, but the limitations of the institution and providing services. Rhonda shared her personal experience navigating accessibility barriers in her own higher education journey and as she worked through the admissions process with her children. This was an enlightening conversation. Speaking for myself, I realized when it comes to accessibility, I tend to wait for information to be told to me rather than seeking it out myself. And I focus on the bare minimum of what I need to do to be compliant when we all know full well that that doesn’t equate to a good student experience. I hope you have some of your own enlightenments while you’re listening to this episode. All right, let’s get started. |
| 0:01:28.79 | 3.8s | Ingrid Nuttall | Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Heard. I’m Ingrid Nuttall. |
| 0:01:33.6 | 1.3s | Portia LaMarr | I’m Portia Lamar, |
| 0:01:34.87 | 1.8s | Tashana Curtis | and I’m Tashana Curtis. Hello, |
| 0:01:36.87 | 1.0s | Ingrid Nuttall | Tashana. |
| 0:01:38.38 | 6.9s | Portia LaMarr | Oh y’all couldn’t see me. I was doing my Arsenio Hall. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa. But now there’s a lot of bat winging going on, |
| 0:01:46.90 | 0.7s | Rhonda Kitch | and joining. |
| 0:01:47.59 | 19.1s | Ingrid Nuttall | It’s a, it’s an audio medium. Joining us today, joining us today is the one, the only, the fabulous Rhonda K. Kitch, University registrar at Cornell University. Rhonda, we are so excited to have you on the pod. Welcome. Yay, |
| 0:02:07.50 | 5.9s | Portia LaMarr | and I’m doing. What isn’t this like I’m doing sign language again, can’t hear me, but I’m, yes, |
| 0:02:13.85 | 5.7s | Ingrid Nuttall | yes, there is, I will narrate. There’s hand, hands up, waving his fingers. |
| 0:02:20.1 | 17.2s | Rhonda Kitch | Yeah, that is you, you’ve got it, Portia. That’s applause and sign language. Way to go. Hi. It’s just truly amazing to, to be in this space with all of you. Um, truly like I, I’m in awe. You, I’m in the presence of greatness. |
| 0:02:37.89 | 30.5s | Ingrid Nuttall | That is a lot to live up to but greatly appreciated. We need to say thank you. I’m gonna say thank you, thank you for that amazing compliment. We are so excited to talk to you and as you know, longtime listener, we love to start the pods by hearing our guests tell us a little bit more about themselves beyond their professional bio as it relates to Heard. So can you introduce yourself? Not like people don’t know you. But, uh, to our listeners and talk about like who you are. |
| 0:03:10.2 | 247.9s | Rhonda Kitch | Sure, and that’s, you know, the, the Midwestern in me will probably Try to gloss over some things, but I’ll, I’ll, I’ll give a start. So I, my pronouns are she, hers, and I am a first-gen baccalaureate degree holder. I was a low-income student. I am incredibly grateful and I’m here today because of Pell Grants and SEOG grants, work study, Perkins loans, um, you know, access and affordability options that allowed me. To first obtain my undergraduate degree and never thought I’d go on and get a master’s and, and subsequently a doctorate, but here I am. So, um, I am, I grew up, uh, in a very incredibly rural area of Western North Dakota, Eastern Montana. When I say rural, I mean rural. My high school graduating class was 16 kids, and to this day, that’s still the largest in school history. So, um, so yeah, I, I came from rural and uh I’m very proud of it. I was a farm kid and learned, uh, the value of, of working very hard and also had tremendous responsibility in before and after school, even in my elementary age years to, um, take care of cattle, horses, chickens, you name it, um, and I. I remember my dad saying, you know, until you are responsible for taking care of other living beings, you, you don’t understand, like, the power of that responsibility. And so, I, I had several hours of work we did before I went to school and hours after school, and then lots of activities that I grew up in. And so, I think that um those early years, like I thought it was child labor, but I, um, those early years taught me a lot of grit and hard work and I was active in 4H. um, fun facts, I grew up, I was a barrel racer, um, a competitive barrel racer. I raised my own cattle. I, um, showed cattle, showed horses. So like this is probably a side of me that most people don’t know, but it’s, it was a very nonformative part of me. Um, when I went to college, I was gonna be an occupational therapist, and that lasted for one whopping semester, and then I changed my mind and I, I actually transferred in the midst of that and um went to moved, moved to a different university. Um, I have been now in higher ed for 32 years. I started off, um, but what I, 32 years professionally, um, prior to being starting as a professional in higher ed. I, I got my taste of higher ed being a resident assistant. I moved to become a hall director. I’ve worked in admissions, financial aid. I loved financial aid, loved, loved, loved it. Um, that was, I thought, my first love until I found registrar work. Um, I’ve worked in retention, student success efforts, uh, counseling center. I was in, while I was a university registrar at my last institution. I was an interim director of a career and advising center, so I learned a bit about that world. And then for the last 22 years, I’ve been in the university registrar’s office. I have been here at Cornell since the middle of January 2020. Um, before that, I was at another land grant university, North Dakota State University, for over 20 years. I’ve worked and learned. At other regional 4-year universities all in the Upper Midwest, uh, I was very active and engaged in that, and that regional association, a UMACR or Upper Midwest Acro, that’s where I met Ingrid, uh, over 2 decades ago. That must be about 22 years ago that Ingrid, and we were babies at that time, but, uh, we’ve we’ve learned a lot since, and then I’ve been highly involved in Acro as well. Um, I would say I, I, I’ve been very blessed and fortunate, but I also know I, I need to acknowledge that I’ve worked hard to get where I’m at, um, and I absolutely love what I do and the people that I’m lucky enough to work with every day. |
| 0:07:18.73 | 51.5s | Portia LaMarr | I mean, I feel like I have so many takeaways from that bio. That was, first of all, excellent and the fact that you can say all of that on the spot is amazing to me. It would be a lot of us, I don’t remember for my part. Um, also, I feel like you, I, I don’t know if, if the girls agree with me, but to have people introduce themselves and also talk about how they got to college. I think it would be wonderful if we add that because to hear someone say, um, especially with, uh, your type of credentials being a doctor, you’re like, uh, you know, they got through, but you don’t really understand how, the how. Yes, we know the coursework was hard and you worked hard for that, but the financial side of it, we never really know and, and it makes all of us relatable because college is not affordable for everyone. |
| 0:08:10.70 | 47.3s | Ingrid Nuttall | Yeah, I’m with Portia. I actually, I mean, as long as I’ve known you, there’s so much I didn’t know about you. This is why, this is why I love this podcast. Um, but for as long as I have known you, Rhonda, you have displayed such incredible commitment to accessibility in every space you have occupied. You have taught me, um, about the importance of paying attention to accessibility, not as an extra or an add-on, but as like a core foundational. tenet of just being in the world and being a professional. So, as we go deeper into that, we like to kind of ground in some definitions. Can you share your definition of accessibility and maybe some examples of where it’s been woven into the work that enrollment professionals might be familiar with that are listening to the pod? |
| 0:08:59.9 | 221.2s | Rhonda Kitch | Oh, from a definition standpoint, I, you know, I think about it it’s, it’s. It’s multi-dimensional. It’s, it’s about the policies, it’s about communications, it’s about the systems. It’s about the environments that we’re navigating, um, that, that all individuals, regardless of ability or circumstance. Can independently and equitably access information, services, and opportunities without unnecessary barriers and I think we can, uh, um, I, I hope we can agree like that we can think about things probably pretty quickly that, that have had that been we, we’ve witnessed or we’ve experienced barriers, but then you think about that. Um, from a lens of individuals with a variety of, of needs and, um, and that have documented disabilities that, that, um, for them to navigate whether that’s from a physical standpoint. Um, mobility standpoint, visual standpoint, auditory standpoint, like whatever it is, um, neurodiversity and, and think, well, now we’re stacking things on top to, to create even more barriers. I, I’m just incredibly sensitive to that and so. You know, going back to my bio and thinking about the, the, the barriers and, and the navigation pieces. Like, I, I, I really, I wish I could pinpoint when I realized that, um, there were other doctors in this world besides medical doctors and veterinarians, like, because I was exposed to a lot of veterinarians, so I knew they were doctors. But I, I, you know, having that realization that there were academic doctors, like, I was, I, I was in college before I realized that. And so, you know, thinking about that as a, like, that’s a navigational approach, and, and I didn’t know what office hours were. Well, I’m guessing a lot of first year students don’t know, not just first gen, but I wasn’t sure what, you know, every, um, Everyone’s different, right? So I wasn’t sure, well, do I, do they have a sign up on their door? Do I need to approach them after class? Like how does this work? Um, and, and, but I didn’t have anybody to tell me like, well, just go ask. Like I, you know, I was pouring through the syllabus and looking for different options. And so then it was a matter of, well, I’ll ask my roommate, I’ll ask some peers and We know that that may, may may or may not be a good resource and so, uh, you know, I didn’t have, not that that’s the greatest source of advising, but I didn’t have Reddit to dial into and so, you know, it’s, it’s those things of how, how to best navigate those spaces and um, so I, I, I think about, um, that a lot and, and I’ll, I’ll share like I. I, I say this often, I cannot take credit for it yet, um, I think students graduate in spite of us and at, at, at our institutions and that they, um, they, they graduate in spite of the obstacles and the barriers that they are navigating and, um, and that doesn’t just have to be, you know, this from an ADA disability lens, um. You know, what, what barrier policies do we have that are, you know, just a struggle for all students? What, you know, what might be a barrier for, um, for first gen, but in particular, you know, I’m, I’m probably more dialed into thinking about this from, uh, an accessibility perspective and going from there. |
| 0:12:41.35 | 19.4s | Portia LaMarr | Yeah, I know that, uh, working as a product manager, um, when we build apps, when we get to that end, it, we run it through accessibility things, um, but now it could be better, um, but it is, it is rammed through that and the other idea is, um |
| 0:13:03.36 | 12.7s | Portia LaMarr | There’s levels to it, and I don’t think we address all of them, but I think it, that’s what, that’s the part where I’m like it, it, it could get better because it should be a no-brainer to make sure all levels are, are adjusted as needed, so. |
| 0:13:16.41 | 323.1s | Rhonda Kitch | You’re, and that’s exactly right, that I, um, I think most institutions do have a web accessibility review process and EUCA does have some really phenomenal resources for that and most institutions are EUCAS members and if, if your institution is, you’re able to become a member, so that’s something to certainly check out but you know, looking at. That review of vended solutions I think is is really critically important, uh, you know, we obviously want our our student information system to be accessible but thinking through, you know, whatever you’re adding on your transcript ordering platform, your degree audit. Your curriculum management, your diploma database, even that might might not be outward facing, but yet, um, thinking about staff internally, uh, you know, just all of those spaces are, are potentials where, where that needs to be considered in my prior institution. We were hiring somebody that um that we were working through and, and working on accommodations and I will never forget like I, I was very aware. I’m like, I don’t know what our, what our institution and then our PeopleSoft instance. This was a part of a state and I thought, well, I, you know, I need to do some checking on, on, you know, what, what are our options and uh from, you know, thinking about perceptive content and, and the Oracle PeopleSoft piece, I had, um, I had multiple instances where people were like, oh wow. Never been faced with that question. Let’s figure this out together. And so that was a real eye opening experience for me in terms of how, how we were going to best support this new staff member, um, with the very software that they were going to have to be living and working in every day. Um, I think though now in, um, in, in today’s world. You know, number one, there’s digital accessibility standards and, uh, you know, thinking about the web content accessibility guidelines, those are international standards and so that, um, I, I think is a benefit, you know, worldwide, obviously, um, but, you know, thinking about this from the lens of vision and screen reading, speech and. Voice input, um, hearing communication needs, mobility and alternative input, um, and these things show up. I mean, there’s, I, I, I think, uh, a really a couple of good examples of thinking about accessibility where when, when you bring in and are mindful of accessibility, everyone benefits and I’m, I’m not gonna ask listeners to raise their hand. They, they can raise their hand if they want to, I guess, but that, you know, think about um. If you, if you bike on sidewalks, you know, have, do you jump off the curb or do you use the, um, you know, the graduated walkway that has now been adjusted over time, um, because for, because of mobility and that, um, you know, the, the sidewalks have been transformed because of that. Well, I mean, I’m a klutz, so if I’m on a bike, I’m definitely not, I’m gonna use the, the, the ramp on the sidewalk. I’m not gonna go off the curb or try to go up the curb. But that ramp was not there, so I am not a klutz on my bike. That ramp is there for limited mobility. But yet the benefit is now hopefully I don’t fall on my bike and um, you know, life is better. Um, thinking about, um, push button doors that, um, that, you know, that is obviously not there for, for me and, and mainstream me, you know, but, um, when I was pushing a stroller when our kids were younger, as my hands are full of packages, have I used my hip and opened, uh, uh, you know, a push button door? Well, of course I have. So, guess what? Like those accessibility, um. Those accessibility aspects in place benefit all of us and, um, and so it’s, it’s thinking about in this case, I would contend the technology in this space of, of where it really does benefit all of us. But yet, um, for, for some individuals having, um, having the, the, what the technology is offering can be the, the difference of, of them feeling included and being included in the conversation and, and not, um, you know, not being a part of it at all and not being able to contribute to the discussion, so. You know, thinking about, um, captions and PowerPoint, thinking about, um, Zoom and Teams, you can capture, you know, you can turn on captions, you can capture transcripts now of those, um, like a, a Zoom transcript. Um, FaceTime has transformed, uh, you know, I, I think of years ago, well, I, I’ll come back to this in a second. So, but FaceTime is, is definitely a, a great way to be. Um, visual and connected with folks, um, there’s a lot of transcription apps that are really powerful on, on phones that you can transcribe or you can, um, use your phone as. A microphone to help amplify for individuals with, with, for example, hearing loss, um, so there’s pretty fascinating technology there, um, it’s like I |
| 0:18:39.51 | 42.7s | Portia LaMarr | feel like you, you are naming things that I’m like, oh my gosh, yes, like I don’t, I don’t use it as or in my mind I’m not using it as someone who needs it. I’m just using it cause it’s there and yes and you and you’re, you’re totally right like oh it’s so many things because and and and it’s I Goodness, it just helps. It helps. Whether you were diagnosed or not diagnosed. I’m like, because now my teen has me used to looking at captions on Netflix. Cause she’s like, sometimes I just can’t hear it and she doesn’t have a, a hearing loss. It’s just, she’s like, I can better understand it if I read it. And I’m like, huh, |
| 0:19:22.43 | 254.5s | Rhonda Kitch | yeah. Right? It’s spot on. It’s, it benefits everyone. Like I um I worked years ago with a graduation vendor and and dear friend to develop the technology that once it was a QR QR code and once the QR code was scanned, the name went up on the Jumbotron at commencement and of course uh you know, we started it from a an accessibility thinking about folks with hearing loss because not everybody with hearing loss knows sign language. Um, you know, we had sign language interpreters, but we thought, let this, this will just give a different flavor and, and be more accessible. Well, guess what? Grandma and grandpa, moms and dads, they loved seeing their graduate’s name up on the Jumbotron. It, it was such a success and so everybody benefited and, and people could easily. Track what was happening in the program because they knew um they knew where things were at so you, you that’s just it there’s so many things that um so many points of technology that really do benefit us all. Uh, I’ll take a pause and let’s talk about hearing loss for a second because that’s, that is where I, my passion lies within this and um. On a personal note, I’m a mama of two kids that are deaf and hard of hearing, and when I say deaf and hard of hearing, uh, since this isn’t in writing, um, our, our son identifies as deaf, and that’s capital D deaf. There’s a difference between capital D deaf and, and lowercase d deaf. Please elaborate. Sure thing, I’m, I am. I’m, since I’m a member, not a member of the deaf community, like, just know that my expertise is personal here, not professional, um, but the, the capital D deaf, um, community really is a community in, in terms of thinking about, um, deaf, deafness as a culture, and so, um, when, when that is, is embraced, um, a, a. And you can be hard of hearing but still identify as capital D Deaf is my understanding, um, but he, he identifies as capital D Deaf and, um, and so thinking that’s not just like, oh, he knows ASL and needs an interpreter, like he thinks about this as it, it’s part of his, his being an identity and culture, just as people might, um, identify in similar ways from a race ethnicity, or, I mean, just any identity. And so, um, versus somebody that has a hearing loss and, and identifies and says, I am, I, I really can’t hear well. I’m deaf, that would be a lowercase d, deaf. And so, um, so he lost most of his hearing when he was about 8 months old. He had some significant medical issues. And, um, and the. Antibiotics that saved his life, tapped his hearing. And so, um, you know, there we are. And so he had hearing aids for a number of years and then about 10 years ago, he received bilateral cochlear implants and, um, truly has, has revolutionized his world. So with his, I’m sorry, with his cochlear implants in, he can hear actually probably better than, than all of you, um, but you know, he, he grew up significantly hard of hearing and that the Um, that those important parts of, of development of speech were just, that’s, that’s a hard timeline to try to overcome and so, and in a, in a loud crowded area, like, you know, he, he doesn’t hear the same as, as the rest of you would. So, um, but he really. Has done um incredibly well from an accommodations perspective, but, but growing up like all through um preschool through postsecondary, he had a sign language interpreter his entire educational career. Our daughter has a is has hard of hearing and identifies as hard of hearing. Um, she has a moderate to severe hearing loss that is genetic. She got it from her tummy mommy or for from her biological mom, I should, um, we call her tummy mommy, and so, |
| 0:23:37.13 | 4.8s | Portia LaMarr | um, well, I’ve never heard that term, and I love it, but I get it now. OK, |
| 0:23:42.2 | 32.2s | Rhonda Kitch | yeah, yeah, so she’s, she’s tummy mommy. Um, she grew in my heart and she grew in her tummy and so, um, our daughter is 19 and has also had interpreters throughout. Um, she started probably in 2nd grade. And um and is now in college and and uses a full-time interpreter um but with her hearing aids if she chooses to listen, I’ll say that she can hear quite well um and needs to she needs to clarify that piece of um sometimes she doesn’t wanna listen |
| 0:24:14.90 | 1.1s | Portia LaMarr | and that’s what we’re doing now, |
| 0:24:17.39 | 4.9s | Rhonda Kitch | you know, we’re 19, yes, yes. Yeah. |
| 0:24:22.95 | 23.8s | Tashana Curtis | So that was um a great segue to my question. In your experience, what mechanisms exist for students to report accessibility barriers and how quickly are those concerns addressed and to add As a staff person, when should I intervene to see if that request has been fulfilled? |
| 0:24:46.97 | 504.4s | Rhonda Kitch | Oh, that’s a fabulous question. So, I, I’m gonna talk about this. I, I mean, it’s easy for me to go into mom mode here because I’ve, I’ve, we’ve had a lot of, um, of experience in this space. Some has been, I would say lack of understanding and awareness of, of what the laws require and, and I wanna be really clear that um. You know, as, as we worked through IEPs with our kids and getting them the services they needed, um, you know, they had, uh, here’s probably a good example, um, you know, it was an expectation that they would have interpreters and, um, that they were required to have interpreters and we had a, a, a plan in place for, uh, what happened if an interpreter was not available. Yet, um, partway through our son was in his early middle school career, um, the, there were struggles getting interpreters and interpreters are hard to find, we get it, um, and, and we learned that he was, he was receiving interpretation from non-certified sign language interpreters. And, um, you know, he was, he was in middle school, so while he was sharing that with us, we didn’t expect him to resolve that on his own. So we as parents, uh, you know, approached the school, worked with the school, and um worked through the various IEP processes including, you know, demanding meetings, going through hearings, all of that, and, and thankfully in each state. There are resources and I, I can speak to this from a deaf heart of hearing perspective, but there, there was a deaf heart of hearing commission in Minnesota that gave us phenomenal resources to work through this and, and the, the, it’s usually, usually an agency within the state. And um and so we, we knew what we needed to do to navigate with the school and we know exactly what our appeal processes were in order to update his IEP to indicate he would only have certified interpreters and, and, and then we had, you know, the, all the um contingency planning that. Um, what would happen if they couldn’t find somebody and there’s, um, CAT technology, it’s a, oh my goodness, I’m not gonna remember, uh, this is terrible, I’m not gonna remember the, the CART acronym, but it would be like an interpreter, basically like an interpreter through an iPad that, um, that they could tap into a, a greater network and is it the same as an in-person interpreter? No, but at least it was still an in-person interpreter. Or a, a, a certified interpreter, um, cart is usually what you see in a doctor’s office when someone needs interpreting and so it’s, it’s pretty slick, but, um, you know, but we had to have those things written in and so, you know, there, there are rights and, and, uh, responsibilities, but the, it’s incumbent upon in this case it was incumbent upon us as parents to keep pushing. Um, but I think, uh, and this is where my lens as a parent blends, blends with my professional world, um, what was, I think, most important for us as parents in, in supporting our kids was. Uh, we were very transparent with our son throughout that process about what was happening, what was going on, what we were doing, because we wanted to him to understand and learn about advocacy, self-addvocacy, and fast forward, he had a, a situation when he got into university that, um, that he had an instructor that was very distracted by the interpreter. And so the the instructor stood between him and the interpreter because she didn’t want the sign language distraction in her viewpoint. Well, then he couldn’t see the interpreter. And, and so, he knew exactly what to do, and he, um, he went through the right panel, channels. He had other students advocating on his behalf, even though he didn’t ask them to. But one of his first stops was the Student Accessibility Center. And So to Shawna, your question about like where to report, um, you know, he first tried to have a conversation with the instructor and when that went nowhere he went to student accessibility services and, and said, what are my options? What can we do? And of course, you know, they were. They were wonderful in working with him, but I, I think what’s, what’s so important to remember in all of this is, you know, have his right to have an interpreter was a part of his accessibility requirements for the institution. Now, if he came and, um, said, I, I need an interpreter, but I also need, and he had in his mind a list of many other um accommodations that he would need. I mean, that’s a conversation with this, with the school, but the, the, just because you’re requesting the accommodations doesn’t mean that, that they’re all going to happen. And so there’s, there’s a level of reasonableness that is there as well, but the, like, I’ll take a sign language interpreter that, um, of course, that’s going to cost an institution money. That’s, uh, you know, the, the demands for that are, are not, um. Not insignificant. Well, that’s not part of the consideration here. I, if, if that’s determined to be an appropriate accommodate accommodation, it needs to be met. And so, um, so I think that’s an imperative piece to, to think throughout this, and that’s, uh, you know, certainly there as we think about post-secondary and access, um, but then there’s, um. You know, I, I think through technology, like if, if it was technology that is run through our office but yet there is a complaint that um I would, I would anticipate here at Cornell, it would come to our, our accessibility team in Central. IT and that they would reach out to us I think depending on like if if it’s something within um here I’ll give a couple of examples if it’s we’ve put a web uh a video up on our website and we chose not to add captions to it. Um, or we, we just used auto gen captions and they weren’t very accurate, which please don’t ever do, people, um, that, that, you know, and the request was for captions to be added or to ensure accuracy of captions like we can remedy that rather quickly and, and take care of that. If it’s something that is, um, more of a space of, you know what, um, we didn’t realize this was an issue, we have been, um. Uh, we, we need to go work with our vendor to make this happen, and the vendor is going to need to take some remediation. Like, we’ll work with them and we’ll, we’ll work to get in front of this, but it at the end of the day it’s outside of our control and so we’ll, we’ll do what we can, um, and we’re committed to making it right. But yet, um, you know, it’s, it’s not, it’s not in our purview. We can’t make those changes. So I, I think it’s a matter of navigating that, but I, um, you know, I think from both personally and professionally that. Rather than coming in with um Oh, you know, hostile or being like, look at all that you’re violating, you know, I, I come from a space of grace and working to educate, create awareness, and, and go from there. But, um, you know, when I think about my, my situations as a parent, um, I mean there was, there’s one situation that I came in and, um, I, I was told at the end by the state representative who was on our side, she was like, you. Should have been an attorney because I brought in um 12 exhibits, of course they were all labeled. I had copies for everybody. I brought in because I, um, did some interviews when I was doing my dissertation, so I had a hand recorder, so I brought that in and I’m like, and we’re recording this today and like it was like I, I had had it with um with their processes and what they were trying to pull and I, I was just like, we’re, we’re gonna wrap this up today. And so I came in and we, um. We sat down and we came out exactly with what I wanted and so um you know, sometimes I mean I was, I was not nice. I, I was, um, probably the most firm that I’ve been in my life and, and |
| 0:33:11.35 | 74.1s | Portia LaMarr | you gotta be firm to, to, to, uh, get what you need, not want what you need and that’s the difference. So I, um, worked as a in my former life I worked as a, um. Intervention specialist in, in, in high school. So I think the other layer, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, is there’s more of an intention on helping students in high school than there is in Post-secondary. Am I saying that right? In, in, in colleges. So, and universities, and it’s not that they don’t wanna help, it’s just there’s no dedicated space to take that particular student and make sure that they’re getting everything they need. So there’s a complete gap within those two worlds. It’s you and, and, and for the most part to be easier on these universities and these institutions. That, that’s it. A lot of students, you know, go through this. Exactly what you were saying, Rhonda, as far as being a first gen, you get there and you don’t know what this means because there’s that huge gap. But It’s a gap and another gap for students who need the accessibility, so that’s, that’s the missing piece. |
| 0:34:25.63 | 164.1s | Rhonda Kitch | I, I completely agree and that’s um You know, no matter how small the institution, there’s typically an accessibility services location, uh, you know, support team that might be a really small support team, um, depending on what, what their resources are, right? Um, but I, I think of, so our, our daughter is in, just finished her first year of, of university and so. I think about our experience in the college search process, so this is tying back to enrollment representatives and enrollment management. Um, like, where can we make a difference? I will, and, you know, it’s not like I came into these college visits and I was like, oh, by the way, you know, I’ve been in higher ed for 3 decades, so I, you know, I know your number. It wasn’t like that at all. I was there as a mama, but as, um, as we were going through each and, and, um, visiting each campus, you know, we were visiting their, um, uh, their, their, you know, not just doing the tour, we were visiting with accessibility services. And there was one institution she went to that we were visiting and after the tour they were intentional about they wanted, wanted us to visit with accessibility services next. We were like, OK, sure, good, and, um, and the reason why like we, we had to stop with them at every campus we visited with they sat us down and they said, and this is, it was a, a rural institution in, in the state of New York. And they said, we just want you to be aware, like, the nearest interpreter is probably 3 hours away. And so, you know, we would love to have her study here. We would love to be here and like, and it’s a small, wonderful institution. They said, we need her to understand, because of where the location is there on the edge of the Adirondacks, um, that the likelihood that she would have in-person interpretation was incredibly low. That she would most likely be working with interpretation through an iPad for her entire college career there. And they were like, if that’s OK, and if that’s the experience that she would like and she’s OK with, then great. But if not, we are not the place for her. And that level of integrity, like thinking about uh the, the navigation and enrollment management space, I had so much respect and so much appreciation for the way that they were just laying it all out and being, you know, |
| 0:37:10.4 | 23.9s | Portia LaMarr | they were being honest and not a salesperson and that’s what I like. Is there any Other areas in enrollment that you feel like it, it would be great if professionals could be equipped with the verbiage to say, hey, this is what I wanna know. I want to let you know we don’t have this in this particular area. Yeah, |
| 0:37:34.15 | 91.2s | Rhonda Kitch | well, I, you know, the lenses that I talked about earlier in terms of thinking about um vision and accessibility and physical mobility and Um, you know, neurodivergent, uh, you know, what, what are the clubs and organizations, what are the, um, Uh, you know, what are the resources for to support from a campus perspective, um, you know, I think of from a, uh, and I’ll take limited mobility. If, if the campus is incredibly hilly like that, how does that work? Like, is it gonna work? I don’t know, you know, that’s, that’s a decision that somebody needs to make from the get-go, but I think the, um, the awareness of, of where your campus and your campus culture may intersect from day one. I, I think that it. That space is so important to be transparent and be upfront, and, and I’ll be candid, like that institution we were visiting then I, you know, and she was like, no, I, I don’t think I could do that full time. Our daughter said like I think it’s fine here and there if I fallback, but I can’t do that full time. And, OK, so we left like that we were done and That it, it’s what it was, but I, I paused to say I need you to understand from, from a parent perspective, um, I will, I will talk very highly about your institution, even though she didn’t select your institution. I’m going to talk very highly about your institution. |
| 0:39:06.16 | 18.0s | Tashana Curtis | I wasn’t at the last ACRO meeting, but um I heard there was a lot of talk, new talk on the ADA compliance regulations. Can you break this down for us, especially for me cause I wasn’t there, and share how your institution has responded to that. |
| 0:39:25.25 | 104.7s | Rhonda Kitch | I’m certainly aware of this in my role, yet, uh, our, our central area from a central IT web accessibility team has been taking, um, a lead on, on helping us navigate this together and, uh, but we feel. Encouraged that we’ve been working through this from a just a strong commitment across the institution and uh within this article it’s uh and post I think and, and I know um Annie Heckle quite well that Just as we say, you know, retention and recruitment is everyone’s responsibility that her comment is accessibility is everyone’s responsibility and so the, the mindset and having that uh uh from a review standpoint and thinking about everything from websites. To vended solutions and beyond, um, you know, we have a university policy dedicated to this and, um, and really there’s been, um, a concerted effort to do some train the trainer helping uh with through some training options for people to create some awareness so we. Uh, can review within our own spaces on, on what, what we need to consider, what needs to be done, and, um, and really just being aware of identifying barriers and how we can, um, how we can best navigate knowing that sometimes remediation takes, um, financial resources, sometimes it’s time resources and, and going from there so it doesn’t happen overnight but yet. Um, you know, that, that awareness and commitment, I think is, is the most important piece. |
| 0:41:11.82 | 10.9s | Ingrid Nuttall | So I am curious if um so did you hear about this Rhonda through your IT department? Did you hear about the requirement that way? Is that how it came to your attention? |
| 0:41:23.18 | 3.7s | Rhonda Kitch | Um, that’s a great question. I |
| 0:41:29.30 | 55.8s | Rhonda Kitch | No, I probably saw something in the Chronicle first, um, and then it was actually, it was probably multi-layered that it was chronicle not long later, something from the institution, but because of the deaf hard of hearing, um, resources and connections that I have that I, um. You know, I saw the information there as well, and like I, I’m just gonna be candid, like I, I can’t count the number of movies that my kids have not seen because they lack captions. And so, you know, there’s just like basic kinds of things like they’ve, well, maybe, maybe it’s available now but else like that was a movie that never had captions and so, um, you know, just those, those things that are very much. Like I had to see it. |
| 0:42:25.13 | 6.7s | Portia LaMarr | Like what I was thinking, like, I don’t know what we do now because yeah, gotta see Elf. |
| 0:42:32.82 | 47.9s | Rhonda Kitch | And when we, because when I bought it, I mean back in the day when you were buying things, when I bought it and then got it home and that was my first movie that I bought for them. And then I, I, I just assumed that captions would be on there. And then I turned and, you know, we started up one night, we were all excited and we kept trying to captions, trying to get captions, no captions, and every TV in our house for over 20 years has had captions on all the time. And then we realized this was not a movie equipped with captions. And so then we, every single movie we bought after that, we would be checking if, if captions were on it and. Um, so I have like a real grudge against movies that initially came out without captions because I was like, why, why are you releasing? Have you |
| 0:43:20.68 | 7.3s | Tashana Curtis | ever reached out to like a Warner Brothers, I sent a general email and saying, hey, this doesn’t have captions. |
| 0:43:28.1 | 1.0s | Portia LaMarr | Hey, what’s the |
| 0:43:28.97 | 6.1s | Rhonda Kitch | deal? Like, I’m on blast all the time. So we just did actually, we did. |
| 0:43:35.29 | 95.7s | Ingrid Nuttall | Everybody, Will Ferrell listens to this podcast. The reason I asked, um, how you heard out about it is because I’m gonna be completely candid and say that I did not understand or it was not on my radar that this had. That this requirement had come out and everybody was talking about it. So I was in, I want to say maybe the, the large school registrars roundtable, and neither had my boss, and we kind of looked at each other like, whoa, how, like how terrible. We are the worst registrars in the world. And then I contacted some other people and I said, how did you find out about it? And one, institution said, well, multiple people said we heard about it from our student disability resource center, um, and that’s how it came our way. And so I guess I wanted to flag that as, you know, even these requirements that are coming down that affect us, being able to. You know, I’m gonna put comply in quotes, but being able really to take advantage of the opportunity to be more intentional about accessibility with and for our students, it is just It is a barrier. It in and of itself is a barrier to getting the information to, to do right by people. Um, I don’t think that I have a question in that it’s more like an observation of, um, you know, I We got, we have to be intentional and seek it out. We have to make the effort, I, I guess, instead of waiting for information and changes to come to us. We have to put Warner Brothers on blast if we want to see captions in elf, |
| 0:45:11.3 | 54.3s | Rhonda Kitch | right? Absolutely. And, and think about, I mean, but that’s, that’s our space for enrollment professionals as well. How many compliance. Um, mandates do we have that we’re, we’re trying to get it out to the masses, we’re trying to get it to our colleges, our academic departments, and, you know, you, you think you’ve done it, a, a, a, a great campaign, and then somebody lo and behold. Say, what do you mean there’s impacts with one Big Beautiful Bill Act? Like I had no idea and, and you’re like, oh my gosh, we’ve been talking about this for months. And so, you know, I, I see that we, we live that every day too. So I, I think it’s a great point. I, and um. And yeah, I, I’m, I’m, I’m aware that I’ve seen resources, um, based on my personal interests that, um, that have helped highlight for me, like what, what the implications are. So, so, |
| 0:46:07.90 | 0.0s | Portia LaMarr | sorry, I |
| 0:46:07.93 | 0.1s | Rhonda Kitch | was ready to |
| 0:46:08.8 | 0.9s | Portia LaMarr | go. On |
| 0:46:08.98 | 2.3s | Rhonda Kitch | to the how, the |
| 0:46:11.28 | 13.2s | Portia LaMarr | how does one do that or just even learn themselves or educate themselves about accessibility to know how to go around their campus and, and get the information that’s needed to be spread around. |
| 0:46:25.37 | 179.4s | Rhonda Kitch | Yeah, um, that, that’s a really awesome question, Portia, that, um, So I think by nature in our profession we have just a drive and a quest for greater awareness. We want information and, and we’re not doing that from a space of we’re seeking world domination. That’s not it at all. We’re just, we want to be informed, we want to be intentional, we want to be doing the right thing and so I, I think it starts there, um, and that, that wanting to create that awareness, but yet, um. I would say not just in the policy space, it’s like the, the idea of um wanting to be mindful, wanting to be inclusive. In, you know, there’s, there’s countless spaces that this needs to happen, so thinking about this from an accessibility lens, um, you know, how can, how can we all ensure that we’re using inclusive language? Well, there’s the National Center for, uh, National Center on Disability and Journalism. They have an inclusive language style guide. And that is a fabulous resource, and I’ll call out one example that um if, if folks are using the term hearing impaired, like that is not a phrase that is acceptable anymore in the community. It is, like I said, it’s a capital D lowercase d, deaf, um, hard of hearing, but it’s also personal. Other individuals might have. Other ways that they want to be addressed, yet the term hearing impaired has been um Has been out of, uh, um, out of vogue for, for quite some time, and so it is helping others understand when you see the phrase hearing impaired to help others understand, you know, I’m not sure if you’re aware, but, and then, you know, using some of that inclusive language and giving people resources of, you know, this is a place that, that could help you. Take a look at language and how, how to be mindful of that inclusivity. And, and coming from a space of, I really don’t believe people are, are using that language intentionally, they’re just not aware yet. Um, and so, and I’ll, I’ll disclose as well, I mean, I talked about my. Kids, but I, my family has long suspected that I have a hearing loss. And I finally got, um, got tested myself in September, last September. And in October, I was fitted for hearing aids. And so I have a mild to moderate loss and. Um, that has opened up even a, a greater new world for me in terms of awareness and um connection. Apparently my husband has not been mumbling for about the last 4 years. Who knew? No, it’s, |
| 0:49:24.85 | 3.3s | Portia LaMarr | it’s my husband. I’m gonna tell you that now. I don’t care what anyone says, but |
| 0:49:28.12 | 132.0s | Rhonda Kitch | yeah. So, um, so now, I mean, this is, it’s personal on an even different level. And I, well, I wouldn’t have considered my, my children to be hearing impaired, um, I would, I would take high offense to somebody saying that I’m hearing impaired. That just. That doesn’t sound inclusive. So, you know, that’s a, that’s a source. I’ll give, um, I mean there’s uh literally oodles of resources out here and I know I’m talking more about hearing loss, but, um, Better Allies, if folks aren’t familiar with Better Allies, that is a weekly newsletter. It’s, it’s quite simple. It comes out every Friday morning and it’s 5 LA actions that are shared every week and, um, they’re quick, they’re typically very. Workplace focused, but, um, but a lot of food for thought uh that that comes within that and so, um, that really covers I think so many areas not just about accessibility but so many different places that we want to be inclusive and intentional and be an ally, um, and then I think about professional organizations there is, it’s called AHED it’s the Ameri no no no, Association on Higher Education and Disability and um. Just as we have ACR as a professional organization ahead is our, our would be our peer organization and um I, I don’t believe they have unlimited membership um slots similar to ACR but that would be a space. There’s, I know that there’s some resources that you do not need to be a member, um, that you can access on their site, but that’s an opportunity then to connect with your student accessibility or human resource accessibility folks whoever is are are members of that organization and um capture, you know, just, you know, are there resources that you could pass along that uh, you know, would be helpful to think about for your team and, and for your own self-awareness and self-growth and so. Um, you know, just, I think those are some, some places to start in terms of, of where to, where to start on, on learning more about accessibility, yeah. |
| 0:51:41.35 | 27.0s | Ingrid Nuttall | So, Rhonda, um, we’re gonna wrap up with a final question beaming into the future. If, if we think about the context of the next Acro annual meeting, right, where people are talking and sharing all kinds of good information, if you were to go to the next cro annual meeting in Long Beach, if everyone there is doing more and doing better when it comes to accessibility, what would you expect to see and what would you hope would be different? |
| 0:52:09.61 | 297.8s | Rhonda Kitch | Uh, well, I, I, kudos to Acro, uh, you know, over the last few years, live captioning has been a part of the plenaries for the last several years, and, um, I, I won’t go into it, but if, if folks aren’t aware of what the difference between live captioning and closed captioning is, that’s another opportunity for awareness. And so, uh, you know, the live captions are, have been game changing even for me. And um and so I think that inclusivity again it’s a space that everybody benefits that everyone in the audience um it provided that that they can read English that it it’s it’s created a space where um it could be easier to track if if um if they’re trying to track the conversation and keep up with things so, um, I, I kudos to ACro and I hope they continue the live captioning, um. I, I think the, the program committee has done an exceptional job as the call for proposals comes out and as both as, uh, as individuals are submitting presentations as well as when presenters and panelists are accepting, uh, becoming a presenter that there’s that commitment to you will use them. Microphone, you will repeat questions when asked, um, you know, that kind of, uh, approach, uh, that, that was not there even a decade ago. And so, um, I appreciate what the program committee has done in that intentionality. It’s, it’s, it’s made a difference and I, I’m gonna be candid, but I realize probably over the past. Four-ish years that I, um, I, I, cause I have some good guesses on how long my hearing has been deteriorating, like, I can’t help but wonder how much I’ve missed out on. Um, and, and that, you know, that was on me for not getting hearing aids, but yet, um, but the lack of use of microphone use and the lack of repeating questions, you know, certainly didn’t help. I think the, I was, I was still in sessions this year where what I would call microphone drift was happening. It started off really strong, um, that people were using them, passing it back and forth, and, um, people were asking questions with the microphone or the questions would be repeated. And then, you know, drifts away and it’s not used quite as much or there might be. Somebody in the audience that says I have a coach voice, I have a mom voice, I have a dad voice, whatever the case, and um and that they don’t use the mic or that the questions aren’t necessarily repeated and um I just, I can’t help but. Wonder how many others are in the audience that are like me that are, are potentially missing out, um, and, you know, the, the numbers can vary a little bit, but by and large, like there’s 50 million Americans that have a hearing loss, it’s 1 in 7 people, um. Yes, it, it tends to get worse with age, um, but 1 in 5 teens have a hearing loss. So, you know, that doesn’t go away as they age, and so. Um, as, as I think about who’s in the room with us, like, the, there’s a number of people with hearing loss in the room. And, um, and so, there’s, there’s that fine line, like, if I choose not to get hearing aids, um, that, that’s on me, but there’s also access in here as well. I’m fortunate enough that my current health insurance will supply me with hearing aids. For forever. I can get a new pair of hearing aids every 3 years. Um, that’s not the case in all health insurance companies and my, my hearing aids. Um, they’re, they’re a high-level, very impressive hearing aid, about $7500 and so, um, that from an accessibility standpoint, you know, financial accessibility if your, if your health insurance doesn’t cover those. There you go. Like that’s, that’s a challenge. And so, um, and my, my soapboxes, I really do not understand why eyes, teeth, and ears are such a luxury when it comes to insurance. I do not understand, but here we are, um, and so, so those are the pieces that if, if folks don’t use the microphone, and I’m gonna put a Um, one of my favorite articles that, um, is, is, is about using a microphone, um, but at the end of the day it really comes down to that the microphone isn’t there for you, it’s there for me, and it’s for everyone else that, that is unable to hear and, and navigate the conversation in such a way and so people need to get past the, the, I don’t wanna use a mic, I don’t need a mic, um, and realize it’s not for them. That, oh, go ahead, Porsha. |
| 0:57:07.73 | 77.8s | Portia LaMarr | No, I was gonna say I, I appreciate um that and yes, the program committee being part of it, we have, and we thought about it and figured out other ways. We did it again after this conference to figure out um what can be better, um, even thought about having ways of having accessibility advocates around. That way, you sign a way. That you would be like, wherever you are in a session, speak up and get, you know, the things that are needed. But again, these are, again, things that should be implemented but are not. And then we also found out that there were some things that weren’t used that Acro did have, which should have been the live caption within the sessions. And that didn’t happen as well. So, yeah, we, we still have more work to do, but I appreciate you and talking about all of this. And I feel like what this reminds me of is, um, and I know you’ve probably worked with them, but, um, Imman Riddick and the late Doctor Whitney, who, who, what, they’ve made a statement that stood out to me saying, saying that at some point, we are all going to be needing this. It is just when. So, it’s not a, it’s not a you, it’s not a, the other person problem, it’s an us problem. So, |
| 0:58:26.40 | 41.2s | Rhonda Kitch | completely agree and um And even if it isn’t you or me for many years, we all still want to be in a place where everyone can participate, everyone can be engaged, everyone, um, can be able to share the feedback and, and so just, uh, that, that’s what we want, whether it’s in. Our, um, our institutions at our conferences, you know, on webinars, you name it, and so, um, I, I, it’s, it’s just, I think of it and, and I, I’m obviously passionate, but this is about being a, you know, basic, decent human being, and so, yeah. |
| 0:59:08.50 | 25.1s | Ingrid Nuttall | I firmly believe that the registrar’s office, like the future, well, the present and future of our work is in change management, communications, training, and user experience. Like that’s such an important discipline for us, and I, I appreciate this conversation in that way too, because it highlights the connection of this to the, the work right here, right now of a modern registrar’s office |
| 0:59:33.55 | 3.0s | Tashana Curtis | with intent, and I just want to throw that out. |
| 0:59:37.54 | 4.1s | Ingrid Nuttall | Rhonda Kitch, thank you so much for joining us. Rhonda, |
| 0:59:41.70 | 0.9s | Tashana Curtis | Rhonda. |
| 0:59:44.34 | 9.7s | Ingrid Nuttall | We appreciate you and um can’t wait to see all of the wonderful things that you continue to do with all the wonderful things that you have done. Thank you for coming on heard. |
| 0:59:55.34 | 1.3s | Rhonda Kitch | Thank you. |
| 1:00:04.32 | 15.2s | Ingrid Nuttall | Thanks for listening to another episode of Heard. We’d love to hear from you. Please send us an email at heard@aacrao.org with any feedback you have for us or show ideas. This episode was produced by Doug Mackey. Thanks, Doug. |
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